Author Topic: Aldehyde dehydrogenase inhibition + piperidine or dimethylamine supplementation  (Read 53822 times)

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Offline peacefull warrior

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as i dont have kambo to test and verify or un-verify the ability of its consituents to be cycled, i will start by pointing to the place ware the most information regarding this method seems to be as far as i know.

in future posts with similar compounds and similar acting compounds to kambos constituents and ideally eventually kambo itself i will document the results of tests.

documentation of past information regarding the system/theory:

(http://herbs.maxforum.org/2011/11/15/lysine-aldehyde-dehydrogenase-inhibitor-tryptophan/)

(http://herbs.maxforum.org/2012/06/30/practical-aplications-of-aldh-inhibitions-ability-/#post12)
in one post SWIM claims they got salvia to cycle for 3 days, but it was only 3 days that they were on the other side of the portal, it lasted easily 2 weeks in reality the best i can explain is 3-6 days past the threshold of "controllable" and then progressive steps into the sensation of "control" the following 11-9 days.

(http://herbs.maxforum.org/2011/05/19/ultimate-phenethylamine-potentiation/)
it would be best to read every pager and post of these threads, so as to get the complete picture of what users have found helps or hurts the system/theory

in future posts i will be quoting some of the more importantly relevant and useful posts from those and other threads from that forum regarding this system/theory.


Offline peacefull warrior

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the best i might start with as an explanation is:

you find a compound known to be potentially capable of being broken down into an alcohol, or witch can be converted or bonded with something that is or can be broken down by a or various enzymes into an alcohol.

then you verify this becoming an alcohol by some method(s)

take 1-2g L-lysine or Lecithin and wait an hour, black pepper tea (1-2 tablespoons) filtered of solids also contains more than enough piperidine

(L-lysine is converted into piperidine in your body ~1 hour after ingestion)

(Lecithin is converted to dimethylamine by your body i don't know how long this takes probably 15 minutes-1hour or more)

some of the following have been noted by individuals who have gotten this working SOMETIMES for SOME compounds:

piperidine = more mental, longer duration, higher brain penetration and/or higher receptor affinity(possibly for different receptors or receptor sets than dimethylamine), possibly less visual

dimethylamine = more visual, shorter duration, lower/higher brain penetration and/or higher receptor affinity(possibly for different receptors or receptor sets than piperidine) possibly less mental

then you take an Aldehyde dehydrogenase inhibitor plus the necessary inducers for the enzyme(s) that break the intended compound down into an alcohol

wait 15-20 minutes and take the intended compound.

effects should be felt within 15-60 minutes for most compounds.

WARNING if you get on a piperidine metabolite of something and find you don't want to be on it anymore (as they often are far more potent and/or mental and/or long lasting, often lasting days) some things i have found effectively work as OFF buttons are: carrots, beets/beet extract, ALDH INDUCERS, inhibiting the enzyme(s) responcible for breaking the compound down into an alcohol, ceasing piperidine/dimethylamine intake, ADH inhibitors.

ALDH = Aldehyde dehydrogenase
ADH = Alcohol dehydrogenase

as far as i know ADH attacks most things that pass through the system before ALDH does.

when the enzyme that creates the alcohol out of the compound(s) is maintained induced and ALDH is sufficiently maintained inhibited, and piperidine/dimethylamine is maintained supplied, many compounds will recycle themselves for many hours/days/weeks or more. usually the piperidines seem to cause the long lasting effects for most of the compounds tested.

what i find truly amazing about this process is you can get to know a teacher much deeper because it can often cause the primary effects caused by the receptors the compound(s) effect to become progressively more tolerant, and after a wile you see all kinds of different sides of all kinds of unexpected compounds. it can make many things bi-phasic for many of their receptors they effect.

Offline peacefull warrior

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taken from (http://herbpedia.wikidot.com/oilahuasca-activation)

that link also contains a very large list of inhibitors for many enzymes that are very usefully once you find out what enzyme(s) can break your compound(s) down into alcohols.

ALCOHOL DEHYDROGENASE

POTENT ALCOHOL DEHYDROGENASE INHIBITORS

Allicin
Acetaldehyde
ALCOHOL DEHYDROGENASE INHIBITORS (Unknown potency)

Caffeic acid
Cinnamaldehyde
Daidzein
Dimethylsulfoxide (DMSO)
Disulfiram
Dodecanoic Acid
Ellagic Acid
Ethanol
Genistein
Isovaleramide
Tween 20
Tween 80
Valerian root
Vanillin

ALDEHYDE DEHYDROGENASE

POTENT ALDEHYDE DEHYDROGENASE INHIBITORS

Calcium carbimide
Daidzein
Daidzin
Disulfiram
Gallic Acid
Semicarbazide
MODERATE ALDEHYDE DEHYDROGENASE INHIBITORS

Kudzu (contains Daidzin)
Soy isoflavones (contains Daidzein, similar to Daidzin)
Durian fruit
WEAK ALDEHYDE DEHYDROGENASE INHIBITORS

Anisaldehyde
Benzaldehyde
Caffeine
Glycerin

in addition most alcohols and aldehydes themselves inhibit the respective enzymes.

a very potent ALDH inhibitor can be made from mixing essential oils of the following:
tangerine, cinnamon, cloves, ginger, orange (sweet), lemongrass, cilantro, allspice, mandarin, lime, spearmint

some of the ingredients may be counter productive, reverse engineering this list starting one ingredient at a time would be the bets method of weeding out problematic oils

i am fairly sure this is referring to the cinnamon oil containing 75%+ cinnamaldehyde

Offline caiano

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Oh yes,  in fact I supposed everything you stated started from that forum... I'm Muvieri there. ;-)
Thank you to re-collecting the infos  for us, because I've always hard times to find them into that board and, even more,  it's not easy to learn and elaborate correctly the flow of discoveries that happens to read there.




Offline peacefull warrior

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well in honesty compiling all these things in an individual thread dedicated to them will make it much more easy for myself and others to copy the information in whole (that witch we are certain of) to be shared with everyone elsewhere.

but i must admit it is a lot easier when trying to make new discoveries to have the concrete info all in one place instead of digging through the pages over there.

ultimately myself or someone else will move the finally compiled sets of info into their respective threads over their, or create threads if not present yet. 

Offline peacefull warrior

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alright here goes:

some of these enzymes are present in locations outside of the digestive tract.

the goal is to get an aldehyde (alcohols are easily turned into aldehydes), now if you stomach has piperidine or dimethylamine present, and aldehyde dehydrogenase (ALDH stomach enzyme) is inhibited (suppressed) then the aldehydes will pass through without this enzyme breaking them down into acids (acids are not what we are looking for here)

alcohols will be turned into aldehydes by stomach enzyme alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH)

now if ALDH is inhibited, and their is piperidine or dimethylamine in the stomach and you eat an aldehyde(or a compound that turns into one) then it can condense with either the piperidine or dimethylamine (or both if present) the resultying compound is high resistant to metabolism by most stomach enzymes and usually last dramatically longer than its ordinary metabolism by product.

most piperidines created this way are not broken down by ALDH, ADH, mao A or B, CYP enzymes dopamine beta-hydroxalase (i spelled that wrong oh well)

the piperidines metabolites can last for days to weeks if the ALDH  is shut down strongly enough and enough piperidine is supplied.

i have made the piperidine metabolite of bufotenin, and nn-dmt, and 5-MeO dmt and MANY more.

the piperidine bufo metabolite was GLORIOUS! we experience less than 0.1% of the actual color we are capable of experiencing with the blinders up.

and this might be of interest to some, if you take tryptophan  (can be found in supplement form, also present in turkey and sunflower and pumpkin seeds) with the right inhibitors first it actually turns into full on nn-dmt (piperidine metabolite) in your body and brain and it is extremely psychedelic and lasts for days. i have done this with spirulina capsules, its actually scary because it produces ayahuasca like effects for days.

so to make it extra simple:

ingest L-lysine

wait 45 minutes

ingest ALDH inhibitor

wait 15 minutes

ingest desired alcohol or aldehyde.

TREMBLE NEXT TO IT


now if the compound is not an alcohol or aldehyde its possible one of its metabolites are, or that one of its routes of metabolism at some point has it as an alcohol or aldehyde, OR that it can be combined with compounds that are aldehydes or alcohols and then the body recognizes it as one as well.

Offline Kambogahuasca Panacea

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I'm in a mix between pinching myself and wondering why the rest of the world is not privy to this info.  So I have so many questions I can't even muster the courage to ask them.  Best to keep this a secret?  I mean is this info only reported on here by you?  Or is it available on other forums?  How did you learn this?  Or was it taught to you? 

I'm just completely awe struck.  What if one did this and then did...

KAMBO!  What could/would happen?  I have found the Kambo land spirit about 1/2 of my 35+ treatments on myself and I have to say it is my favorite entheogenic vibe.  So if there would be a way to make that "vibe spirit" last for a longer time I would like to try it.  Or I also wonder with these entheogenic eye drops that I use/make called Sananga and the other called Becchete.  Or is it only through the stomach? 

I have so many other questions it's not even funny.  In that case I must ask first if you don't mind me asking a whole heap of questions.  I apologize if you have previously addressed some of what I have asked, I have troubles wrapping my mind around all these brand new earth shattering concepts. 

Offline peacefull warrior

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i somehow missed this post, sorry.

this is posted in detail on herbsmax and drugs-forum, drugs forum responded negatively, it originated from herbsmax when 69ron said that when he took PEA after pepper tea it lasted for days at a time and was scary. i started trying almost everything in this way after this, only few things are not capable of doing this with.

i would prefer you ask the largest most hideously massive list of questions you can possibly muster, the more the better.

with some of the entheogens i partake in the way in witch you ask and word the questions and the content of the questions themselves teaches me more than you are gaining from the answer, among many things one of witch is how to translate complex ideas into the most easily digestible format for your perspective.

"Or I also wonder with these entheogenic eye drops that I use/make called Sananga and the other called Becchete.  Or is it only through the stomach?"

if you know the species names for the ingredients i can look for listed chemical constituents and give you my uneducated guess based on the presence or absence of alcohols or aldehydes or the presence or absence of amines

" I apologize if you have previously addressed some of what I have asked,"

i do not mind at all please ask away, the vast majority of the info is held in the memory of a small handful of individuals and scattered very randomly at herbsmax, this will be one of the first times the information gets compiled into one place, i would like to eventually add posts to the herbsmax wiki.

Offline peacefull warrior

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"Or is it only through the stomach?  "

it is NOT only through the stomach, first ask ware you want to do this on the body, and what ingredients then i will see what needs to be done.

if you drink pepper tea without the solids for a few days 2-3 cups a day and or supplement with L-lysine daily  you can easily cycling things that are applied transdermally (through the skin)

after a few days your body gets filled up with piperidine and then the brain starts to get filled, this is why it helps to do it multiple days, as long as you have piperidine in your brain in decent amounts you can do this conversion inside your brain, some of the most powerful experiences i have had with oilahuasca and other cycling experiences were when it did not activate until it reached my brain(i would not be using this specific of descriptions if i had not had 1000-2000 basil oil experiences, so i KNOW when its at what stage of activation and what metabolite i made and how long its going to last and sooooooooooooo many more variables i KNOW instantly as soon as the first shift from baseline occurs.

i can feel the amount of weight behind what i am riding and the channels it is flowing through.

Offline Kambogahuasca Panacea

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if you drink pepper tea without the solids for a few days 2-3 cups a day and or supplement with L-lysine daily  you can easily cycling things that are applied transdermally (through the skin)

I guess this could be called a dieta of sorts.  I want to start a thread on this cycling method at some point.  It is more intriguing to me for some reason. When you had your spirulina Aya like experience was it with this method?  When you do the EO transdermal do you cycle or do it as is?

For piperine they use black peppercorn fruits, is that the same I use for my tea?  Or just regular old black pepper? 

Does the effect of cycling make it stronger or just last longer?

As you may or may not know Iboga is officially endangered in it's home country of Gabon, so looking for extreme potentiation is a vital resource.  Is it your understanding that this method could conserve Iboga by making effects stronger and last longer, therefore needing vey minute amounts?

Thanks

Offline peacefull warrior

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"  I want to start a thread on this cycling method at some point"

actually you may find this funny but the title of this thread IS the cycling method i just did not put the word "cycling" in the title lol

"When you had your spirulina Aya like experience was it with this method?"

it was not like aya with just caapi it was like full aya brew with dmt and maoi admixtures.

yes i supplied lecithin (becomes dimethylamine) and aldehyde dehydrogenase inhibitors, causing the tryptophan in the spiralina to turn into its alcohol when mao a or b break it down, then the alcohol passes through alcohol dehydrogenase turning it into an aldehyde, witch WOULD pass through aldehyde dehydrogenase but that is strongly inhibited, so the aldehyde of tryptophan condenses with the dimethylamine from the lecithin, this new molecule basically does not pass through mao a or b as strongly as the ordinary version so it becomes extremely potent(, it shifts its metabolism over to the alcohol system, witch if the alcohol route ends up breaking down it then passes through the mao a or b again becoming a alcohol and starting the cycle again.  ( spirulina is very bad choice as it contains extremely little, i took around 20 gel caps lol)

dimethylamine metabolites may pass through mao or b somewhat, wile piperidine metabolites will pretty well not pass through them at all, so a weak non-complete inhibitor for mao a or b could help when using lecithin and making dimethylamine versions of things, wile the piperidine versions of things will probably not matter much if you inhibit mao a or b at all.

"When you do the EO transdermal do you cycle or do it as is?"

when using allylbenzenes EO's transdermally yes i cycle them, i never do allylbenzenes without cyclign them regardless of ruet of administration (even vaporized is possible, but very strong because the metabolites are almost created solely in the brain)
on the other forum we ditermined that all the allylbenzene EO's could be cycled (things like basil EO, nutmeg EO, persley seed EO, etc etc)  some oils do not have allylbenzenes in them, but some do have aldehydes or alcohols as some of their active ingredients, these aldehydes and alcohols can be cycled, any amines can be cycled, anything that can be broken down by the body into an amine, aldehyde, or an alcohol can be cycled.

"For piperine they use black peppercorn fruits, is that the same I use for my tea?  Or just regular old black pepper?  "

yes you want regular ground black pepper i think 1-2 tablespoons, put in coffee filter, twist the opening closed and seal with twist tie and put into cup of boiling water let steep for maybe 5-15 minutes and drink either stand alone or with noodles or soup as the broth.  you want to avoid piperine (in the solids, will not extract into water) and go for piperidine (gets extracted into the water), this is why you put the ground black pepper into a coffee filter and twist the opening closed and then seal it with a twist tie so none of the pepper solids go out into your water, so when you drink it you only get the piperidine that got extracted into the water, and none of the piperine from the solids.

"Does the effect of cycling make it stronger or just last longer?"

both, very strongly.

"As you may or may not know Iboga is officially endangered in it's home country of Gabon, so looking for extreme potentiation is a vital resource.  Is it your understanding that this method could conserve Iboga by making effects stronger and last longer, therefore needing vey minute amounts?"

yes this could be used to make massive shifts towards saving the species, EXPECT literally expect the plant teacher to gift you EXTREMELY strongly if you sit down hone your intentions in a pure heart attempting to work and do what you CAN do from your position to help prevent its endanderment, and then partake in seremony, you can almost EXPECT the plant teacher to extremely strongly favor you and show you many extremely deep wisdoms and magics with witch to accomplish the goal, and then you can expect that if you dont first use those magics to aid the plants survival before other uses, you will be punished by yourself for squandering the gift, as the plant will contract with a part of yourself that is sensable and knows their must be pure intentions every step of the way and this part of the self is the guide for the ordinary self we take part in.

i found on wiki data detailing metabolism, i will soon post what needs to be done to cycle ibogaine, and potentially how it could be diffirent from traditional iboga.

other things that will very strongly potentiate iboga are the list of NMDA antagonists i PM to you, take them all 30-60 minutes before iboga.

Offline peacefull warrior

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now both ibogaine (12-Methoxyibogamine) and Noribogaine (12-Hydroxyibogamine) both seem to be able to be cycle because they are amines


i am currently looking up the receptors ibogaine alone hits, wile wiki lists the following for Noribogaine:

"Noribogaine is most potent as a serotonin reuptake inhibitor and acts as a moderate κ- and weak µ-opioid receptor full agonist"

the serotonin reuptake inhibitor part means temporarily during its effects the serotonin system is somewhat suppressed but upon the effect wearing off their is a permanent increase in the reuptake of serotonin, that is only reversed with continued over-activation of that system most usually by drugs of abuse.

one of the iboga effects are hallucinations from 5HT2A agonism, this is the primary receptor most psychedelics effect, downstream (downstream means activating this causes the activation of) this agonizes dopamine 2 receptor (D2), some compounds don't start with 5HT2A at all and instead directly effect D2 like salvia and cannabis, the primary effects of cannabis are D2 agonism, hard drugs like meth and cocaine the dream states these can cause are also caused by D2 agonism. lsd has a D2 agonism component.

now iboga is good in chronic micro doses (multiple reasons this is just one) because its kappa agonism increases the amount of D2 receptors in the brain, so that its 5HT2A agonism has more D2 receptors to flow into downstream.

the kappa opiod agonist part means you will get dynorphin, and your D2 receptors will be upregualted meaning increase the amount of receptors on the cell (addiction downregulates, anti-addictives upregulate)

dynorphin is the primary feeling of dread or loathing or dysphoria produced by drug withdrawal, intense exercise also produces dynorphin release. dynorphin itself agonizes kappa receptors. agonizing kappa receptors also releases dynorphin.

regardless of the means of activation agonizing kappa receptor reverses addiction in many key areas, it does not fix it, it pushes the bar in the right direction, in the same way abstaining from drugs for long periods would, so its kind of like speeding up time, agonizing this receptor as far as drug withdrawal is concerned because you can concentrate strong withdrawal of the drug into a short period of time and be done with it instead of dragging the dread out for weeks and months.

its effects on µ-opioid receptor are weaker than for kappa this is good, this receptor will give it a little bit higher of a serotonin phase in the beginning, it also makes this compound very useful for pain treatment and addiction treatment, because the NMDA antagonism makes its µ-opioid agonism non-tolerance creating, and the kappa agonism reverses the tolerance the user already had before ingestion.


the more CYP2D6 enzyme present in the stomach the less ibogaine you will get and the more Noribogaine you will get below is a list of inhibitors for that enzyme witch will cause ibogaine to be active alone taking much longer for the enzyme to recover and turn ibogaine into Noribogaine.

i will post more when i find out what ibogaine does alone.

i realize all this sounds fairly complicated at first, but you have to understand i am no student in any university or college, the psychedelics lead me to interest in how ABSOLUTELY everything effects the way i feel and my health and i take it as a form of creative expression to find out these things(there is no right or wrong just learning), once you truly understand the connectivity of all the systems in the brain and body and have a good relationship with psychedelics you truly hold the keys to the the mysteries of nature, the physical design and structure of the physical body and its micro systems, reflects perfectly the structure of the spiritual bodies and realms and their structure. the design of the structure comes from the same source.


POTENT CYP2D6 INHIBITORS

Cannabidiol (from Cannabis)
Echinacea purpurea
Goldenseal
Pomegranate juice (Punica granatum): 1 cup
Pummelo
Saint John’s Wort (high dose)
Starfruit juice
White grapefruit juice: 2 cups
MODERATE CYP2D6 INHIBITORS

Black pepper: 5 grams (ingest the solids, it's an ineffective inhibitor as tea)
Calamus EO: 3 drops
Kava
Pi. cubeba
Quercetin
Zingiber aromaticum
WEAK CYP2D6 INHIBITORS

Alpha-asarone (found in Calamus EO)
Black cohosh
Capsaicin (found in cayenne pepper, habanero peppers, etc.)
Cayenne pepper
Common sage
Cryptotanshinone
Curcuma heyneana
Curcumin
German chamomile EO
Ginkgo biloba
Habanero pepper
Milk Thistle
Safrole
Tanshinone I
Turmeric

Offline peacefull warrior

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i have a high level wizard friend who can distinguish most of the dopamine receptors by the color of hallucinations they cause.

personally the only thing i can think of that is similar to that is from dosing yin on left and yang on right half of body i can feel dopaminergics or serotonergics very distinctly when taken now.

yin = serotonin

yang = dopamine

also if you take these you will get more Noribogaine effects and less ibogaine effects:

CYP2D6 INDUCERS

Valerian root
Valerian root EO: 2-5 drops

i am still looking up the effects of ibogaine alone without noribogaine will post when found.

Offline Kambogahuasca Panacea

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"As you may or may not know Iboga is officially endangered in it's home country of Gabon, so looking for extreme potentiation is a vital resource.  Is it your understanding that this method could conserve Iboga by making effects stronger and last longer, therefore needing vey minute amounts?"

yes this could be used to make massive shifts towards saving the species, EXPECT literally expect the plant teacher to gift you EXTREMELY strongly if you sit down hone your intentions in a pure heart attempting to work and do what you CAN do from your position to help prevent its endanderment, and then partake in seremony, you can almost EXPECT the plant teacher to extremely strongly favor you and show you many extremely deep wisdoms and magics with witch to accomplish the goal, and then you can expect that if you dont first use those magics to aid the plants survival before other uses, you will be punished by yourself for squandering the gift, as the plant will contract with a part of yourself that is sensable and knows their must be pure intentions every step of the way and this part of the self is the guide for the ordinary self we take part in.

REVOLUTIONARY dear brother!  This is giving me so much hope and optimism.  Let's continue these movements forward at warp speed.  Thanks for giving me this time to catch up a bit. 

I'm considering now posting whatever you write on the eboka forum as this is some of the most advanced Iboga infor I have come across.  Only with your permission of course.

Thanks again,
KP

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So are you saying rather than doing the "Aldehyde dehydrogenase inhibition + piperidine or dimethylamine supplementation" cycling for Iboga instead one would utilize the CYP2D6 INHIBITORS?

Many seek the Noribogaine effects as this is filled with positive bliss.  If you can hone this one out...BOOM BUHM! 

If you can distinguish possibly (PLEASE) the two different inhibitors needed for seperately Ibogaine and then for Noribogaine in the section titled under Iboga and Kambo I would appreciate it.  I will move your topics to that section with your permission or you can do so. 

Breakthroughs!  Even if we're the only ones noticing.