Kambo
Kambo Protocol's => Application => Topic started by: Hip on May 17, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
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New Ways of Administering Kambo?
UPDATE (Feb 2013): The warning posted by KP (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=184.msg1076#msg1076), about the fact that snorting kambo can lead cause what the Indian's call "frog's disease", is one that should be considered.
UPDATE (May 2013): The following information about catching frog's disease from snorting/sublingual kambo was posted by Galega (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=52.msg1395#msg1395):
Frog disease is a viral type illnes that cannot be gotten rid of. It is unknown to the outside world. Amongst other things, it can apparently weaken the heart muscles and cause cardiac arrest and have some effects on the brain - he described it as 'eating the brain'!. Indians who snort snuff with kambo in it do so only very occasionally and always in conjunction with heavy kambo sessions so the live kambo acts as a kind of anti venom/viral. Even so, it is still considered risky he says and only for those with strong hearts and systems (eg, regular kambo users). His view is that kambo taken orally could also cause the same problem.
http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=52.msg1395#msg1395
I am interested in discussing/innovating new methods of administering kambo (other than the traditional method of mildly burning small areas on the skin with hot smoldering ash, and then putting kambo on the burnt skin where it is absorbed transdermally at the burn).
What other ways might there be to absorb a dose of kambo?
Well, I believe that the peptides in kambo readily cross the mucous membranes, since I have read reports of people successfully administering kambo intranasally (ie, snorting kambo into the nose). The nasal cavity is lined with a mucous membrane, and this is where the kambo would be absorbed. Mucous membranes are far more absorbent than normal skin.
Furthermore, there are several other useful mucous membranes to be found on the body, which should also absorb kambo. These mucous membranes include: the lining within the mouth, and the lining in the rectum.
I think it is these various mucous membrane areas that are most likely to facilitate successful kambo absorption.
There are also some normal skin areas that are more permeable than others, such as the skin of the scrotum, and to a lesser degree, the perhaps skin under the armpits. Many substances are absorbed transdermally through the skin, which is why you can get nicotine patches, testosterone patches, and so forth. However, my guess is these skin areas will not work for kambo.
Anyway, to get this discussion going, below is a list of places on the skin and the mucous membranes where kambo might well be absorbed.
Note that in any experiments on these areas of skin and mucous membrane, it is important to be cautious, and initially begin using a very low dose of kambo, just in case the method you use absorbs more kambo than you anticipated.
List of Experimental Kambo Administration Areas / Techniques
Mucous Membrane Areas:
Intranasal. Snorting up kambo powder via a drinking straw through the nose and into the nasal cavity, where there is a large mucous membrane. Test a small amount of powder in the nose first, to ensure it does not sting.
Note: for intranasal kambo insufflation (snorting kambo powder as snuff), see also this thread on taking kambo snuff (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=184).
On upper gums. There is a reasonably large area of mucous membrane on the upper gums (above your upper teeth) and on the inner cheeks inside the mouth that may well absorb kambo. You could put some kambo on your finger tip, and massage it on your upper gum area. Lower gum area may also work, but there is more saliva in the lower gum area that may wash away the kambo before it gets the chance to absorb.
Sublingual. The mucus membranes under the tongue and on the lower floor of the mouth may well absorb kambo. You could put some kambo on your finger tip, and massage it into these mucous membranes for a few minutes (the massage should mechanically aid absorption). Though again, saliva may wash away the kambo before it has a chance to absorb through these sublingual mucous membranes.
Intraurethral. Not for the faint hearted! The skin lining the urethra is a mucous membrane. The male urethra is around 18 cm long; the female urethra is around 4 cm long. Sounds possibly painful to administer here, but note that the urethral mucous membranes are not quite as sensitive as the nasal mucous membranes.
Glans and foreskin. The glans of the penis is a mucous membrane, and the inner foreskin is a mucous membrane (the outside of the foreskin is a continuation of the skin on the shaft of the penis, but the inner foreskin is a mucous membrane).
Intravaginal pessary. Such pessaries are a well-known and highly effective means of absorbing drugs or supplements.
Rectal suppository. Conceivably, the correct dose of kambo could be placed in the rectum as a suppository capsule. The rectum is lined with a mucous membrane (and this rectal mucous membrane is larger in area than the mucous membrane of the nasal cavity).
Skin Areas:
Transscrotal absorption. Whilst the scrotum is not a mucous membrane, it is more absorbent than other skin sites. Transscrotal absorption is employed by some transdermal testosterone patches, and scrotal skin permits 5 to 40 times greater absorption of testosterone than other skin sites. Perhaps kambo might be absorbed here?
Under armpits and underside of arms. The skin here is thinner and more absorbent than other areas of body skin. A shaved armpit is useful here.
Sonophoresis. Sonophoresis is a standard technique for increasing the transdermal absorption of vitamins, drugs and other compounds through the skin. Sonophoresis uses the ultrasonic vibrations of a small metal plate to push vitamins and drugs through the skin. Ultrasonic massagers which have a vibration frequency from 1 to 3 megahertz (MHz) can be used to perform sonophoresis. These ultrasonic vibrations cause temporary microscopic pores to open in the skin, which help the skin absorb compounds.
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Safety Warning
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Warning: There have been accounts of incorrect use of kambo leading to death.
To quote a Machineri Indian: "Our healers know how to use the frog's secretion. Now, it is being used in other places incorrectly, and this has led to the death of patients." Reference: here (http://www.ipsnews.net/2008/05/biodiversity-indigenous-peoples-fight-theft).
This should sound a strong warning to anyone considering experimenting with alternative routes of administration of kambo: you may be entering uncharted and risky territory.
Though I have been unable to find the particular details on why these deaths occurred, my guess is that these fatalities may have been caused by accidentally administering too much kambo.
Anyone who is going to experiment with alternative routes of kambo administration, such as the intranasal route, should buy a sensitive digital scales (http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=digital+scales+0.001) that measures down to 1 mg (= 0.001 grams) before they begin any experimentation, in order to measure doses accurately. You can buy such a scales for as little as $15.
If you don't feel confident about your ability to precisely weigh out tiny milligram amounts of kambo in an accurate manner, then you should not experiment with alternative routes route of kambo administration.
This is because, when using alternative routes of administration, there may be a very real danger of an overdose of kambo if you do not measure your kambo dosage precisely, using a sensitive digital scales that can weigh down to 1 mg.
Kambo contains the highly potent opioid compounds dermorphin and deltorphin. Dermorphin is 30 to 60 times more potent than morphine when taken orally, and 200 to 300 times more potent when taken intravenously. (As little as 200 mg of morphine can be fatal.) Just 1 mg of intravenous dermorphin will kill you instantly. Reference: Exotic Frog Drug Boosting Racing Horse’s Performance (http://www.treatment4addiction.com/blog/drugs/exotic-frog-drug-boosting-racing-horses-performance).
One might assume that the potency of dermorphin taken intranasally will be somewhere in between its oral and intravenous potency; so one might hazard a guess that intranasal dermorphin is say 100 times more potent than morphine. Therefore, as a rough guess, perhaps around 3 mg of dermorphin taken intranasally would kill you instantly. This is just to give a very rough idea of how tiny the lethal dose of dermorphin is.
I could not find any figures for the percentage dermorphin content of kambo, but if we knew this, we could work out what the lethal dose of intranasal kambo is, from the dermorphin perspective at least.
If you read this account (http://forum.opiophile.org/showthread.php?331-dermorphin&p=2332&viewfull=1#post2332) by a person named "SuperJunky" injecting himself with pure dermorphin, you will see he used a tiny dose of 100 micrograms of dermorphin, and found this was as powerful as heroin. Dermorphin is extremely potent stuff.
The deltorphin component of kambo is another issue, as are its other active constituents.
So be very careful with measuring out your kambo doses, if you decide to experiment with taking kambo by alternative routes, such as the intranasal route.
Remember, when you are using the normal burn method of administration of kambo, this burn method has a built-in safety mechanism, in that each burn area will I think only absorb a limited amount of kambo. So I would think you cannot easily overdose with the burn method, because the total kambo dose administered is related to the number and size of the burn areas you make and use.
By contrast, if you are taking kambo powder by alternative routes, such as snorting it into the nose, there is no safety mechanism at all that prevents you from taking too much kambo, because everything you snort into your nose will be absorbed by the nasal mucous membranes. So it is entirely up to you to precisely measure the dose you take, and make sure you don't administer yourself a lethal dose.
Therefore, it is crucial to weigh the exact amount kambo powder in milligrams before you snort it.
It may well be that doses of 50 to 100 mg of kambo powder taken intranasally might be a lethal for some people. But this is purely a guess, because we don't know the lethal dose of kambo; we need to find some reliable info on this. It seems that 15 mg of pure kambo powder taken intranasally is a tried and tested dose for one person: Romanesco has taken this 15 mg dose level several times intranasally (see his posts on page 1 of this thread). But going much beyond that dose is probably not advisable. This reference (http://www.mariri.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=1) provided by KP on page 1 of this thread says the Kaxinawa Indians snort Kambo as a snuff, but the this reference does not provide dosing information.
Finally, if you are going to experiment with alternative routes of administration of kambo, such the intranasal method, remember to observe the normal preparations before taking a full dose of kambo, which requires being on diet without solids or salt for at least 12 hours. Reference: Kambô, The Spirit of the Shaman (http://www.ayahuasca.com/spirit/kambo-the-spirit-of-the-shaman).
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I've heard from KP very recently on another board that sniffing Kambo might be an option. Can you perhaps enlighten us on that KP?
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Well it was actually rOm who snuffed 15mg to great success. So he would have to describe his experience but it is secretely known that the Kaxinawa do it...
http://mariri.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=1
Kampú can be used to make snuff - the Indians would take scrape off some of the dried milk with a stick and mix it into tobacco. Just before going into the forest, they would take some of the snuff, and then go hunt.
Kambo eye drops...
Check this video out and listen very close to seconds 40 through minute 1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrk3GoH ... ybvVdHZrsN
I will be doing this soon, trust me it is safe and will be visionary. Sananga just told me so. Mega dilluted in between a homeopathic and a regular recipe with some MSM and Neti Salt.
I had reasonable success with DMSO but I think to make it significantly worthwhile one would need to do the 20x DMSO gel that Mary Poppins told me about...
https://jacoblab.com/OrderExcelsa20XGel.html
One would put the DMSO on first and wait a bit and then put the Kambo on. I will do that too when I get around to it.
Thanks for the innovative and creative thread, we need more of you's here!!!
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can we get some details on the insulfating
how much
how it compares
where to source it as a powder
did you mix it with tobacco
mary
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Snuff was made simply by scrapping the kambo stick in my case and made into fine powder.
First 15 mg weight then repeated over two weeks or three.
After one or two times I also mixed with voacanga seeds snuff while on low doses of iboga, it was more comfortable.
You can mix with nunu or tsuné or Rapé (Hapé) snuff also.
Or snuff a bit of nunu before to help your sensitive nostril and synergize a bit.
Once snuffed, prepair to inflate like a balloon and feel nauseous (it won't make for a easy experience even if you do'nt burn, it is uncomfortable).
But as usual past this stage you feel better.
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Thanks very much Kambogahuasca Panacea and Romanesco for your replies.
Regarding the 15 mg of dried kambo secretions, scrapped from the kambo stick and snorted into the nose: is this amount enough to produce the full kambo experience — ie, nausea, vomiting and diarrhea for 30 minutes — that you get using the skin burn method of kambo administration? Or does snorting 15 mg of dried kambo produce a much milder effect?
I would also like to know if anybody has microdosed kambo, taking small daily kambo doses that produce very few symptoms, rather than taking one full kambo dose every month that produces strong symptoms.
If microdosing very small daily amounts of kambo (via snorting, or perhaps sublingually) provides the same health and curative benefits as a single strong monthly dose, then this microdosing might be an easier way of taking kambo (especially for people like me that have chronic fatigue syndrome or other health conditions, who don't quite feel fit enough to go through the intense experience you get with the full kambo dose).
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Kambo eye drops...
Check this video out and listen very close to seconds 40 through minute 1:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrk3GoH ... ybvVdHZrsN
I will be doing this soon, trust me it is safe and will be visionary. Sananga just told me so. Mega dilluted in between a homeopathic and a regular recipe with some MSM and Neti Salt.
Sounds very interesting, KP, though the youTube weblink given does not work — could you post this link again please.
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Sorry about that. So right around :40-1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrk3GoHG3w&feature=plcp&context=C3bb00b9UDOEgsToPDskKjV-yywwYr3DybvVdHZrsN
Also Gloriadeo microdoses with Kambo. I plain on doing 1 per day for 7 days here soon and I will let you know it goes.
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the 15mg intranasal didn't gove the full kambo experience, it was nausea, swollen face, then diarrhea for me.
Each time I repeat this I didn't purge orally. I don't know why.
I still want to do it fully the traditionnal way though.
I feel this was an introduction, and an allergy test.
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Sorry about that. So right around :40-1:30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlrk3GoHG3w&feature=plcp&context=C3bb00b9UDOEgsToPDskKjV-yywwYr3DybvVdHZrsN
Also Gloriadeo microdoses with Kambo. I plain on doing 1 per day for 7 days here soon and I will let you know it goes.
Thanks KP. So the guy in the video got some kambo in his eye while handling the frog, and this produced a full kambo experience. Wow.
I guess that makes sense, though, since the eye socket and inner eye lid is a mucous membrane, so would likely absorb kambo just as well as the mucous membrane in the nasal cavity.
I am thinking that smearing kambo with your finger all around the gum area above your upper teeth should also be effective — and is very easy to do.
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It's said that the frog save its life releasing its secretion in the fauces of snakes: so we can argue that mouth's mucoses are suited to absorb well the medicine.
EDIT: But the collateral problem would be that vomiting one risks to expell easily also the kambò he keeps in the mouth.
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One thought: might there be a danger of taking too much kambo if you administer it via the mucous membranes?
Might the main purpose of the skin burning administration used by the Amazonian Indians in fact be to precisely control the kambo dose?
Perhaps on small areas of burnt skin, only a controlled and consistent amount of kambo is absorbed. Even if you were to place much higher amounts of kambo on the burn skin area, this may not substantially increase the dose you receive (but I am just guessing). In other words, the skin burning administration of kambo used by the Amazonian Indians might actually be done for safety, in order to prevent accidental overdose, and in order to achieve consistent dosing.
But with administration through the mucous membranes (nasal cavity, mouth, etc), perhaps if you were to accidentally apply a very high amount of kambo in this way, most of this kambo might be absorbed, giving you an overdose.
Consider that, if kambo can be easily administered via the mucous membranes where it is well absorbed, there must be a good reason why these Amazonian Indians choose to use the more complex skin burning approach, instead of just say snorting kambo into the nose, or just smearing kambo onto the upper gums. My guess is that they employ the skin burning administration because helps to deliver a controlled, consistent dosage.
Of course, with precise digital scales, you may be able to measure the correct and consistent dose for mucous membrane administration — provided that your source of kambo does not vary much in its concentration.
I just mention all this, because it is important to consider safety.
For microdosing kambo, obviously there is not so much concern about taking a little too much, as you are only using small doses anyway.
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yes Hip, I agree with your arguments: the burning dots method is a very smart solution to the many variables that kambò intake has to face.
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I love the burning application and consider it unsurpassable technology. I want to put other things in the burns too, as I have heard the Matses use other medicines in that way. Iboga TA to the burn??? I'll find out within the year.
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I love the burning application and consider it unsurpassable technology. I want to put other things in the burns too, as I have heard the Matses use other medicines in that way. Iboga TA to the burn??? I'll find out within the year.
One unconfirmed thing I read was that it is not actually the burn itself that allows the kambo peptides to enter the body, but rather the local inflammatory response that kicks into action at the burn site. Though I have not seen any solid references for this, so it remains unconfirmed in my mind.
If true, though, it suggests that kambo could be administered via other types of inflammatory skin responses, like say a nickel contact allergy on the skin (for those allergic to nickel: 17% of women and 3% of men are allergic to nickel).
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I have a bottle of DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide) on me so I'm going to try that route after I try the conventional route. For anyone who doesn't know, DMSO opens up the skin pores and allows drug compounds to be ingested through the skin.
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I've tried it and it slightly worked. I don't recommend it though, burns is the best method. What's wrong with burning someone tell me? It's part of the process and the Kambo spirit appreciates it.
Girls like it too!
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I have no problem with the burning method but the location I'm going to do it in is extremely windy (by the beach) so I'll have a hard time using a lighter. I suppose a blowtorch lighter will work though. That brings up another question. Can you cause the burns an hour before administering the kambo or does the kambo have to be administered directly after the burns are made. Also I wonder about grazes and cuts. Would too much kambo be absorbed through an open wound and thus, cause an overdose?
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I would ask Caiano on all those questions.
I know the burns are good for a while but not sure how long for.
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DMSO i would avoid for some reasons I don't remember but that emerged on http://herbs.maxforum.org/ which relate to the administration of essential oils ( probably it inhibits some enzymes, ... and stinks).
The body try to repair the burns quickly so I think after a while the skin holes are not suitable for the best absorption.
I have no idea about the effect of applying kambò on wounds or grazes: lymphatic system is the route we learned by the natives and for me it is enough.
Sorry to be not of much help.
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Yeah maybe then, just change the location instead of changing the method for a location :o
I mean what's more important ? That you will be doing kambo to yourself, or you will go to this beach place ? ???
I've tried another ROA, but didn't got the full release, Intranasal works but now I only wait to make it properly through the burning method. Maybe these other less efficient ROA are good after you already did a lot of burning.
In my opinion, it is interesting to see other options, but truly I feel the only way to get full release from kambo is to burn oneself.
I like the ritual also, so very unique. 8)
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Safety Warning
Danger of Death!
Just to be cautious, I have just written a safety warning about experimenting with alternative methods of taking kambo. This safety warning has been placed in the first post, on the first page of this thread. Please read this safety warning before experimenting with any alternative routes of administration of kambo, such as snorting kambo.
You can read this safety warning HERE (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=52)
Scroll down to the end of that first post to see the safety warning.
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Can anybody outline, even if only briefly, how to apply kambo using DMSO?
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Can anybody outline, even if only briefly, how to apply kambo using DMSO?
I have used DMSO in the past to carry vitamins across the skin and into my body, so I can give you a general idea on how to use DMSO.
DMSO is a clear oily liquid, and if you place it on your skin, it soon seeps across the skin and into your body. But DMSO is a unique liquid, and anything you dissolve into it beforehand tends to be carried into your body as the DMSO seeps across your skin.
(So make sure you don't have anything toxic on your skin that could get carried into your body by DMSO; I won't use DMSO just after spraying the garden with weedkiller, for example).
When I used DMSO to carry certain vitamins into my body, I just dissolved the vitamin powder in the DMSO beforehand, and then just splashed this solution onto my skin.
Note that pure 100% DMSO can irritate the skin a little, so most people dilute DMSO 50/50 with water, which prevents this irritation.
Make sure you buy medical grade DMSO, not industrial grade DMSO which can have contaminants in it.
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This thread (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/669808-Experimental-Use-of-Dermorphin-to-Treat-Chronic-Fatigue-Syndrome-%97-Some-Questions?p=11435824) details my experience of snorting pure pharmacological grade dermorphin (dermorphin is one of the main active components of kambo). Note that dermorphin can cause fatal overdoses in microgram amounts, so you need to know what you are doing before experimenting with pure dermorphin.
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Has anyone tried kambo under the tongue or on the gums, I am interested in trying it that way but don't want to overdose.
I see you mentioned being careful when doing it intranasaly but does the same caution apply for under the tongue or on the gums should I just give it a go or weigh it out before hand?
Thanks
Adamantasaurus
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Has anyone tried kambo under the tongue or on the gums, I am interested in trying it that way but don't want to overdose.
I see you mentioned being careful when doing it intranasaly but does the same caution apply for under the tongue or on the gums should I just give it a go or weigh it out before hand?
Thanks
Adamantasaurus
I tried taking kambo under the tongue: I placed 2 mg of finely powdered kambo under my tongue, and gently massaged this into the sublingual mucous membranes with my index finger.
I was surprised to find that there was no effect whatsoever from this sublingual administration of kambo.
I am not really sure why. Why should the nasal mucosa be very effective in rapidly absorbing snorted kambo powder, and giving you a kambo trip, yet the sublingual mucosa don't seem to work at all, at least for the dose of kambo I used?
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Has anyone tried kambo under the tongue or on the gums, I am interested in trying it that way but don't want to overdose.
I see you mentioned being careful when doing it intranasaly but does the same caution apply for under the tongue or on the gums should I just give it a go or weigh it out before hand?
Thanks
Adamantasaurus
I tried taking kambo under the tongue: I placed 2 mg of finely powdered kambo under my tongue, and gently massaged this into the sublingual mucous membranes with my index finger.
I was surprised to find that there was no effect whatsoever from this sublingual administration of kambo.
I am not really sure why. Why should the nasal mucosa be very effective in rapidly absorbing snorted kambo powder, and giving you a kambo trip, yet the sublingual mucosa don't seem to work at all, at least for the dose of kambo I used?
i usually combine sublingual with nasal and oral in capsules with inhibitors, with sublingual you want to hold distilled water in your mouth with the kambo and every now and then swallow the water and replace it with fresh water, if you hydrate your body with continuous consistently slow intake of water for days beforehand its very powerful how you will be able to notice the degree to witch particular doses of water enhance the mobility of kambo through the body. when you swallow the water it will contain a little kambo but most of the kambo will still be on the top skin layers this is why you do multiple washes. try not to let this liquid sit in the back of your throat before swallowing it will numb the part that intersects nasal-mouth-throat passages and will make it feel weird to breath.
WARNING
READ : when you sublingual kambo especially in combination with snuff and other modalities, the likelihood of your lips or gums or under your tongue swelling up raises dramatically, the less water you drink beforehand at a steady rate consistently the more likely swelling will occur as well, i have put kambo under my tongue before and had the swelling so bad that the tiny super thin membrane of flesh under my tongue swelled to the point ware it was literally as if i had another tongue underneath my regular one, the second being entirely just kambo swollen mucous membrane from under the tongue, it can take a few hours or a day and lots of water to take the swelling down.
WARNING
another good trick is to add say mandarin, balsam fir needle, lemongrass, peppermint, cinnamon essential oils 1 drop each under the tongue with the kambo this will dramatically enhance the absorption and potency of the kambo and your bodies sensitivity to it.
don't be to concerned with putting to much under your tongue the worst that will happen is if the pits of hell materialize under your tongue, when you get to that stage you need to stop putting it under your tongue till it settles down a day or two later, a black hole will form under your tongue if you do to much and this black hole is not literally a black colored hole, but rather the muscles under your tongue go into prolonged sustained tension and anything you put under your tongue in this period will literally get pulled into your lymph channels like a object in quicksand, really really fucking fast quicksand.
the trick to getting the mouth to swell is to put in large amounts with little water wile dehydrated in 1 shot.
smaller amounts spread out with more water before and during is more likely to avoid swelling
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another good trick is to add say mandarin, balsam fir needle, lemongrass, peppermint, cinnamon essential oils 1 drop each under the tongue with the kambo this will dramatically enhance the absorption and potency of the kambo and your bodies sensitivity to it
I suggest if you just take kambo sublingually (with or without essential oils), you will get no effect whatsoever. Kambo does not seem effective when taken sublingually.
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I was wondering if kambo could be rubbed on the tips of acupuncture needles before they were applied into the skin.
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I was wondering if kambo could be rubbed on the tips of acupuncture needles before they were applied into the skin.
That might work, but don't forget that kambo is not a sterile product (it comes from the skin of a live animal), so this would be highly inadvisable, as you may introduce a microbial infection into the body.
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another good trick is to add say mandarin, balsam fir needle, lemongrass, peppermint, cinnamon essential oils 1 drop each under the tongue with the kambo this will dramatically enhance the absorption and potency of the kambo and your bodies sensitivity to it
I suggest if you just take kambo sublingually (with or without essential oils), you will get no effect whatsoever. Kambo does not seem effective when taken sublingually.
i am just going to let you know, you are wrong, not my opinion somebody told me to let you know that.
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i am just going to let you know, you are wrong, not my opinion somebody told me to let you know that.
Peacefull Warrior, have you actually tried taking kambo sublingually (without simultaneously using any other routes of administration such as intranasally, etc), and if so, did you get an effect from sublingual kambo?
If you have not tried taking kambo purely sublingually, then try it for yourself, and see if you can get it to work. I'd be interested to hear your results.
In my own experiments, I measured out 1 mg of kambo powder for snorting intranasally (which I scrapped of my kambo stick and ground to a very fine powder using a mortar and pestle).
This low 1 mg dose is enough for a very light kambo trip (for a full kambo trip, though, you need to snort about 15 mg of kambo).
On each occasion when I snorted 1 mg of kambo, I got very rapid and very definite effects within a minute or two: a racing, pounding heart, and I had blood flushed to my face so that I looked bright red.
However, when I took the same 1 mg dose of kambo under my tongue, I got no effect whatsoever.
So if you can get sublingual kambo to work, then I will believe you. But until then, my impression is that you cannot take kambo sublingually.
One person (see HERE (https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22689)) tried putting kambo on the gum line and the cheeks inside his mouth (the cheeks inside the mouth are mucous membranes too), and he said that, quote: "using an extremely small amount in between the check and gum line….it swelled up like a balloon but the only effect I got was extremely lethargy similar to an opiate without much euphoria".
So the gum line / cheeks do seem to work to a degree.
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I can only encourage such efforts. I would like to especially encourage Peaceful Warrior, he has done many advanced studies in reporting via PM form, I hope we can believe and know that such things are possible. As you can imagine people are pesstimistic in his studies which discourages him sharing. I can only say that I'm a believer. I think there was a misunderstanding or maybe not.
I think every time PW has it sublinguilly he has the EO's as well. So many PM's he has shared that they could be a book. I'm very grateful for his efforts and I hope we can be optimistic as this will help him share more. I know for myself when people doubt such risky and avante garde experience-meants it makes me not want to share.
Sorry for my delay in PM'ing back in promptness my brother life has gotten too busy to make clear responses ATM.
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"I think every time PW has it sublinguilly he has the EO's as well."
this is not the case, i get effects without EO's, with EO's is stronger and slightly different, but without EO's it still works just fine, there may be something wrong with your guys mouth tissues, possibly with all the EO meridian and chakra balancing and clearing for so long and pressure points perhaps i have cleared my lymph channels and nodes really strongly and maybe i am able to feel the effects kambo is supposed to impart sublingually wile possibly many who are not getting effects sublingually have lots of lymph congestion especially in the mouth area.
if you guys used EO to balance and clear your chakras and meridians frequently enough you could stop and kambo would still impart stronger effects sublingually because the oils actually make the system of entry and exit of the body for all forms of matter and non-matter, its hard to describe, it was worse before i did it, and i feel healthier now, and i am developing really obvious extra-sensory functions the more consistently i clear and balance my chakras and meridians, before you clear them something in your body is broken and nothing will work right until the overall system is healed
its not "PW is doing other things that are activating it that we don't know about"
its "you are all doing toxic things that prevent you from being able to notice what is supposed to be the default potential
"I know for myself when people doubt such risky and avante garde experience-meants it makes me not want to share."
this is true, for me it is fine though, because for me it tells me that the person is not certain about what they are claiming, otherwise they would be able to trust it enough to have full confidence the truth they encountered will prove itself to other people regardless if you communicate the idea effectively or not.
"Sorry for my delay in PM'ing back in promptness my brother life has gotten too busy to make clear responses ATM."
dont worry brother we all know your crazy busy with so many things, no rush, much love
all the things we know about the physical universe, were learned studying the non-physical universe. because there is no physical universe, what we identify as the physical universe is actually a non-physical universe disguised as a physical one.
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Hi all,
I have been consulting with one of my Kambo teachers about these issues and trying to get some more info. He is Kaxinawa by the way
Firstly, Adding dry kambo to rape' and Frog Disease.
By my best interpretation - he told me that frog disease is a viral type illnes that cannot be gotten rid of. It is unknown to the outside world. Amongst other things, it can apparently weaken the heart muscles and cause cardiac arrest and have some effects on the brain - he described it as 'eating the brain'!. Indians who snort snuff with kambo in it do so only very occasionally and always in conjunction with heavy kambo sessions so the live kambo acts as a kind of anti venom/viral. Even so, it is still considered risky he says and only for those with strong hearts and systems (eg, regular kambo users). His view is that kambo taken orally could also cause the same problem. In order to do its work, Kambo needs to enter the body via the Lymphatic System. The only way to achieve this in sufficient quantity is by breaking the surface of the skin. Whilst some may absorb through mucous membranes you may simply be releasing toxins into your body (see below)
Secondly, microdosing with Kambo. This practice will almost definately cause more harm than good. Small doses of kambo cause a release of toxins into your body which are not then expelled but are instead absorbed back into your cells. The point of purging is to release the toxins so they are out of the body and don't cause any more harm.
Thirdly, Dermorphin dosing. Check out Opiod/Opiate Induced Psychosis. Usuallay resolves with a few days but has been known to occasionally trigger more lasting mental health problems (my background is psychology by the way).
Not sure I understand what the issue is with the skin burns. They can be very small - ranging from 2 - 4 millimetres across. You can do tiny ones with an ultra fine incense stick - just do more burns or do two back to back treatments on the same burns. They heal pretty much invisible. If you are taking Kambo on a regular basis you can reuse the same points over and over. Just wait until they are fully healed -2-3 months and use them again. I have burns that I reuse 4 or 5 times a year. If you are doing cigarette sized burns and spacing them out then that's a little ugly. Small burns, strategically positioned (if you need discretion) and close together in a pattern are no worse than a tattoo. I love mine and I'm very proud of them. For those of us that have used kambo to aid our recovery from illness, they are a reminder of what we have overcome on our journey.
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I have been consulting with one of my Kambo teachers about these issues and trying to get some more info. He is Kaxinawa by the way
Firstly, Adding dry kambo to rape' and Frog Disease.
By my best interpretation - he told me that frog disease is a viral type illnes that cannot be gotten rid of. It is unknown to the outside world. Amongst other things, it can apparently weaken the heart muscles and cause cardiac arrest and have some effects on the brain - he described it as 'eating the brain'!. Indians who snort snuff with kambo in it do so only very occasionally and always in conjunction with heavy kambo sessions so the live kambo acts as a kind of anti venom/viral.
Very good work, Galega! Your information from the Kaxinawa Indian, about the frog's disease that you can catch from taking kambo intranasally or sublingually, is very much appreciated.
It certainly sounds very inadvisable to take kambo intranasally by snuff, or by the sublingual route. This infectious frog's disease may be some unknown virus, bacterium, fungus or parasitic organism. Definitely not something you want getting into your body, and eating your brain for lunch!
The interesting question is why this infectious microorganism from kambo does not infect the body when kambo is administered by skin burn. I suspect the skin burn method may protect you from infection, as a result of the inflammation at the site of the burn (inflammation is in fact the immune system working on overdrive). This inflammation probably destroys any infectious microorganism in the kambo before it gets a chance to enter the body. It is amazing that the Indians have been able to devise this safe method of kambo administration.
Thirdly, Dermorphin dosing. Check out Opiod/Opiate Induced Psychosis. Usuallay resolves with a few days but has been known to occasionally trigger more lasting mental health problems (my background is psychology by the way).
Very interesting, Galega. I conducted a test where I took one single low dose of 100 mcg of pure pharmaceutical grade dermorphin as an experimental treatment for my chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS). For three days after this single dose of dermorphin, many of my CFS symptoms were noticeably improved. However, on the fourth day, I experienced some mild psychosis, which was quite horrible, but fortunately cleared up by the next day. Although I have experienced days with mild psychosis before, as I had anxiety disorder, and this is known to precipitate anxiety psychosis on bad days.
This mild psychosis experience has made me more careful and cautious about taking dermorphin as an experimental CFS treatment. Having said that, I think I may have worked out the biochemical mechanism by which dermorphin (and other opioids) can precipitate psychosis, and I may have a remedy that prevents this from happening.
You can read about my experiences with dermorphin as an experimental CFS treatment HERE (http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/669808-Experimental-Use-of-Dermorphin-to-Treat-Chronic-Fatigue-Syndrome-%97-Some-Questions?p=11435824#post11435824) and HERE (http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/from-bedbound-to-fit-and-able-in-14-days-effects-of-the-amazonian-medicine-kambo-on-a-cfs-patient.22952/) and HERE (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=239.msg1320#msg1320).
There interesting thing about taking pure dermorphin was that I did not feel any bad effects at all when I took it (in fact no mental or physical effects manifested whatsoever from taking this dermorphin), and I did not feel bad in the first three days that followed (apart from some emotional flatness). This contrasts to what I understand about taking kambo for CFS, where you in fact feel worse for one or two days after taking kambo, before you feel better.
In your post here (http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=234.msg1286#msg1286), Galega, you confirm this:
Every person that I have treated with CFS (or any compromised immune system) has felt sh*t the day after and improved over the next 5 days. I have found that as they progress with kambo, this drops from 5 to 4 to 3 etc until eventually it starts to kick in.
Have you treated many patients with CFS, by the way? It would be very interesting to hear your general observations on kambo as a CFS treatment, and any "dos" and "don't" that you have learnt from your experiences in treating CFS patients.
What did you mean when you said "I have found that as they progress with kambo, this drops from 5 to 4 to 3 etc until eventually it starts to kick in," incidentally? Are you saying that with repeated kambo treatments, the number of days that CFS patients feel bad after taking kambo reduces?
Not sure I understand what the issue is with the skin burns. They can be very small - ranging from 2 - 4 millimetres across. You can do tiny ones with an ultra fine incense stick - just do more burns or do two back to back treatments on the same burns. They heal pretty much invisible. If you are taking Kambo on a regular basis you can reuse the same points over and over. Just wait until they are fully healed -2-3 months and use them again. I have burns that I reuse 4 or 5 times a year. If you are doing cigarette sized burns and spacing them out then that's a little ugly. Small burns, strategically positioned (if you need discretion) and close together in a pattern are no worse than a tattoo. I love mine and I'm very proud of them. For those of us that have used kambo to aid our recovery from illness, they are a reminder of what we have overcome on our journey.
That is interesting that you can reuse the same burn spots several times a year.
In talking to other people with chronic fatigue syndrome about the possible benefits of kambo, a lot of people seem to be put off by the fact that you have to use skin burns to take kambo. But from what you are saying, it seems these burns can be very small — and reusable.
If you ever get a chance, it would be great to see some pictures of these small 2 – 4 mm skin burns that you make with an incense stick, and how the burns look after several months of healing. The pictures of the kambo burns I have seen (such as the pictures HERE (http://thingsihaveneverdone.wordpress.com/tag/kambo/)) show cigarette-sized scars.
I would have thought, though, that with smaller sized burns, you would absorb less kambo? Is this the case, or are smaller burns equally as effective?
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Hip, yes that's exaclty what I'm saying. I have treated several people with CFS. They way that the treatments are given is very important. I start low to guage the persons tolerance. You can see how weak or strong a person is by how long it takes them to recover after Kambo. The key is to build up slowly but to treat frequently. I have learnt this through experience. The first people that I treated were wiped out for days afterwards. I noticed that with subsequent treatments this period of time got shorter. So first few treatments, it was maybe four/five days before the person started to feel some benefit and the benefits wore off within another four or five days. With subsequent treatments this recovery period reduced and the benefit period increased. In most cases the person felt worse after the treatment than before. This puzzled me and din't fit what I know about how Kambo works until it occured to me that maybe the Kambo was working so hard in their body that it was wearing them out. So, more recently, I started with 6 tiny dots and encourage them to purge as much as possible, masses of water, rape', rattle work and even fingers down the throat if need be. They didn't feel so great after but they felt ok the next day. I started to slowly increase the dose at each treatment and it solved the problem. The client grew stronger as the dose was increased. As she grew stronger, she was able to cope with a higher dose. And as she received the higher doses, she was feeling better and better and the good effects started to increase. Once you reach this stage, you should space the treatments out a little more. Moving them further and further apart, whilst increasing the dose by one point each time and if possible, moving the points closer to the heart. I have used this technique a couple of times now - I think its unique in the kambo world and it works. You can also improve the efficacy by thoughtful use of the meridians but you must ensure that you get this right or you could be setting up a kind of self-defeating energy circuit. Every person will have some key issues in CFS, whether it be pain, depression, fatigue or some other issue. Pick what's most prevalent and work with that as far as meridians are concerned. Eventually you will be taking kambo once every 2 - 3 months which is easily sustainable and you can reuse the points. Because of my background, I think its also important to address the emotional aspects of CFS - life with it and life without it - especially for a long termer. I tend to do this alongside of kambo treatments and I also use other plant based remedies and supplements too.
It's true that you absorb less kambo with smaller burns but then you do more of them. Its a choice, less bigger ones or more smaller ones. I tend to use small on sensitive areas and for 'pretty' patterns. You can also mix the size of the burns. One central larger burn and a circle of smaller burns. Another way to get more kambo into small burns is to do one treatment, remove the kambo after the purge and replace it to bring on another deeper purge. I don't recommend this until you are strong with kambo though. The burns on the guy's back in your link are what I would consider large, the ones on his arm are normal. If I could work out how to upload pictures on here I'd show you. As you get healthier, the burns heal faster and I make plasters from plant extracts to heal them even faster. When they are fully healed and faded to white, you can reuse them, no problem. The other thing that I see, especially with self administered burns but also with some practitioners is deep burns. This is not necessary, you only need to scrape off the top layer of skin - there should be no blood or redness, just a small white patch. The burn is so 'on the surface' that it will heal really well. This just takes practice. Its a light touch and a downward flick of the wrist rather than a pressing in action.
Have a look at this video - this is nice burn work and notice the wrist action.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkCzGgBFjKw&list=PL4BA05652D302C0B2
As for the Indian disease, I think that one of the functions of the lymphatic system is to beat anything nasty to death as soon as it tries to enter the body so that may be part of why it needs to go in that way. When the skin is burnt, all the bodys' defences rush to that site and attempy to anihilate anything dodgy. There are many stories about how they worked out how to administer it but mostly they say that it came from the spirit of intelligent plants in the forest - can't argue with that.
Will PM you too
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Hi Galega
It is very interesting to hear that in the long term, maintenance treatments of kambo are only required every 2 to 3 months for CFS patients. That does make it much easier than I thought. This contrasts to Jox's account of treating his CFS: it seems Jox requires kambo every week, even after a year on kambo; but then Jox started taking kambo when he was in a bedbound condition, so he began at quite a severe level of CFS. Myself, I am semi-housebound with my CFS.
What sort of health gains do CFS patients make after many months of kambo treatment, by the way? Usually in CFS, measurement scales like the Energy Index Point Score (http://www.jamesmatthewsmd.com/Energy-Index-Points-Score.html/) or the Karnofsky Scale (http://www.hospicepatients.org/karnofsky.html) are used to quantify a CFS patient's health and abilities. Any treatment which can improve the health of a CFS patient by even one or two steps on these scales is considered a worthwhile and effective treatment.
Another useful scale for quantifying a CFS patient's health is this one:
0 - Bedridden constantly
1 - Mostly bedridden
2 - leave house once a week, concentrate 1/hour a day
3 - leave house several times/week, two hours work/activity at home a day
4 - three to four hours of work/activity a day
5 - four to five hours/activity a day
6 - six to seven hours/activity a day
7 - able to work full-time but with difficulty
8 - near-normal activity level but still symptomatic
9 - normal activity level, mild symptoms
10- fully recovered
For a CFS patient, moving up these scales even by just one step is a very welcome improvement. I just wondered roughly how many steps up these scales you would estimate the kambo treatment provides in CFS patients, in your experience
Incidentally, the tiredness and worsening of symptoms that CFS patients experience in the days immediately following a kambo treatment might in part be explained by the fact that any form of strenuous exertion or physical exercise worsens CFS for a few days. That is to say, all CFS patients get worse after exertion; this phenomenon is a part of the disease, and it is given the name PEM - post exertional malaise. Since a kambo session will produce lots of physical exertion and expend lots of physical energy (via repeated muscle contractions from the purging), this exertion may be wearing out CFS patients, and giving them PEM for a few days.
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Yes, you may be right about why Kambo makes CFS patients worse but then you need to add into that paradigm the fact that Kambo actually increases energy levels fairly fast in most people. I don't know the answer to this one. It's my intention, when I get time and some technical help to put together an anonymous online system for recording outcomes for Kambo users so maybe we will be able to see clearer patterns emerging in the future.
Thanks for the info about measurement scales. These are really usefull. I think its difficult to say how many steps a person would improve as a general statement because everyone is individual and responds differently but I would want to see someone that I was treating move 4-6 steps up your scale over the period of a year. I've certainly seen that in a few cases. Certainly there will be some corelation between where you start and how far you can go in that timeframe. And, this is a long term thing. If you are at the top end of the scale you need to be prepared to commit to a year or even more of treatment before you can settle into a routine 2-3 monthly treatment. You also need to be aware of what you're doing in terms of how much, how often and where you place it. These can all make a huge difference, as can the level of drive and desire to recover. This is something that I look at with the person and we put together a treatment protocol that they can go on with in my absence. In this situation, I like to do the first 3-4 treatments and then, where appropriate, teach self application so that the person takes over responsibility for their own treatment but uses the plan that we have agreed. I then follow up with them and we make whatever adjustments we need to along the way. I work like this because I'm usually not in one location for more than a few months at a time and the cost is prohibitive for most people anyway.
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Thanks for the info about measurement scales. These are really usefull. I think its difficult to say how many steps a person would improve as a general statement because everyone is individual and responds differently but I would want to see someone that I was treating move 4-6 steps up your scale over the period of a year. I've certainly seen that in a few cases.
Hi Galega — a CFS patient moving up 4-6 steps on the scale is an amazing achievement. In all the various CFS treatment protocols that I have seen (and I believe I am familiar with nearly all of them), a response as good as that is uncommon.
Generally speaking, for any given CFS treatment protocol, there tends to be a large variation in response: one CFS patient can do extremely well on a given treatment protocol, but the next patient may have no response at all, or just have a mediocre response. So if kambo follows the same tendencies as other CFS treatment protocols, you might also expect a significant variation in response to kambo from one CFS patient to the next.
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Yes, I'm sure here will be variation in response to some degree because everyone is starting from a different place but kambo is not a 'normal' treatment protocol. Its not a combination of interventions, its an holistic treatment that is pretty miraculous in my view and very few people will have a mediocre response to it if it is properly administered. You are right that peoples response to kambo is uncommon but that's because its unique in its make up and its healing power. There is no other treatment like it.
This is just my experience of it and of course, I grant you that we are not talking abot thousands of people going through a clinical trial. I'm planning to start properly collating all these outcomes and have been asking people to keep records so that I can compile some facts and figures on this but like everything it takes time.
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I'm planning to start properly collating all these outcomes and have been asking people to keep records so that I can compile some facts and figures on this but like everything it takes time.
That would be amazing if you could do that, Galega. I imagine that if there were some statistical evidence demonstrating that an intense year of kambo treatment stands a good chance of producing a substantial improvement or even remission in CFS, then I'd expect many CFS patients might take the plunge and commit to taking kambo for a whole year.
It would not take that much time to gather this info: you could just email out the CFS measurement scale questionnaire to your clients say once every 6 months, and ask them simply to return a figure from 0 to 10 that reflects their current CFS status.
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You're right Hip so I've started asking people with CFS, ME or Depression to fill in a questionnaire every three months for me. I'm gonna focus on those for the moment as they're the most common issues that I come across and I seriously don't have the time to do more yet.
Thank you for showing me the way on this one.
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@Galega
why do you have CFS, ME and Depression in the same category? Do you know that we are fighting for nearly 30 years to have it separated? and have it in neuro-immunologic, post viral syndrome disfunction and not psychiatric condition as depression...
Any chronic illness is depressing, but doesn't mean it is depression.
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You're right Hip so I've started asking people with CFS, ME or Depression to fill in a questionnaire every three months for me. I'm gonna focus on those for the moment as they're the most common issues that I come across and I seriously don't have the time to do more yet.
Thank you for showing me the way on this one.
A pleasure to be of help. I'd certainly be interested to see the results.
@Galega
why do you have CFS, ME and Depression in the same category? Do you know that we are fighting for nearly 30 years to have it separated? and have it in neuro-immunologic, post viral syndrome disfunction and not psychiatric condition as depression...
Any chronic illness is depressing, but doesn't mean it is depression.
I don't think Galega is putting ME/CFS and depression in the same category; I think she is just saying that she is going to send out these questionnaires to her ME/CFS patients, and also to her patients that suffer depression.
The only stumbling block I can foresee is mixing up patients that have just have chronic fatigue for a few months, with patients that have proper chronic fatigue syndrome for years. People can get chronic fatigue for a few months from an Epstein-Barr virus infection, for example, but this condition usually clears itself up within 6 months even without any medication, so chronic fatigue is not the same as chronic fatigue syndrome.
The official CDC diagnostic rules for chronic fatigue syndrome (http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/case-definition/1994.html) require that the fatigue must have been continuously present for at least 6 months before a diagnosis of CFS can be given.
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Hi both
I'm not putting them in the same category. Hip is correct in that i'm simply saying that I want to track these conditions because they are the top three that I come across in my work. I always ask questions about duration and symptoms to try and establish exactly what is happening to someone.
Prior to kambo, I spent half my life working in mental health so I know only too well the difference between depression as a diagnosable condition and depression that comes from dealing with chronic pain on a daily basis. Even depression itself can be categorised in many different ways.
You're quite right that they are not in the same category - maybe I wasn't clear enough.
I always try to differentiate between true CFS and post viral fatigue and the many other causes of fatigue like stress etc and I use 6 -9 months plus as a marker of this.
Anyhow, I appreciate you pulling me up on this guys. The more info I have, the better I can work, so thanks!
Apologies to have taken so long to respond - travelling and working and little time for internet these days so please bear with me.
Galega