Kambo and autoimmune responses? Could that make things worse?

[artycok]

Hi all,

WOW, thank you all so much for your feedback and care, I am quite touched really!! I will try to be systematic:

PrimusCantus: Thank you so much for more detailed info about your friend with lyme. Good to know she also did not feel any better right away. I do feel that I should give it some more time and stick with it (but only if I do not get worse, in that case, I will quit). Yes it requires perserverance and patience - now, after 3 yrs, I guess I kinda posess those qualities (well, most of the time, I certainly am not that kind of person by nature!).

Kambogahuascangapé:Thank you so much for this, good to know that one can expect some effect even weeks later!! Also I agree that those statements about getting better in 3 months 3x Kambo are rather misleading. I definitely did not think that could happen to me, after all I have been through. I was just looking for tiny little positive stuff, anything. If that's a better mood 3rd day after treatment, then well, better than nothing. But I have to be careful - it could just be the enthusiasm of trying something new and thus seeing a new option to liberate myself from this deep hole of dis-ease. I am a psychologist so heck I know the connection between psyche/mind ad body. We'll see after next treatments! As for the spiritual aspect - yeah I must say I am humble facing Kambo, and every time I had it applied I just tried to say very warm "hi" to it as it entered my system. Ha. I might sound nuts, but I do believe that there is an important spiritual part to it! By the way, I have been having very colorful, interesting and sometimes disturbing dreams after and even before Kambo... Defnitely a good thing, as dreams are one of the best ways to connect with oneself.

Galega: Thanks for your insights and suggestions! I have mentioned some of these earlier (for example candida - I know I have that problem and I am on the diet, plus I tried dozens of herbs and supplements and treatments...  With no luck. So for now, I am just keeping sugars/starches as low as possible. No gluten no dairy. So this is covered for now I hope - I can not use herbs for now as I became super sensitive to evrything (in fact goldenseal pushed me deeper to autoimmunity and that was given to me by well known American herbalist, and since then, I react oddly to all herbs, some foods and substances)

As for stress response - you are right that the interstitial cystitis and fatique brought me down after a very, very stressful period in my life. First break up of a 7 years long relationship, plus really bad family family issues and in all this, master's exams and PhD appliance. No fun. After it was all done, I just crushed. But, it has been 3 years already, and you are right that I extensively altered my lifestyle and the way I am dealing with stress. For now, a source of stress is in my illness, and mostly for financial reasons. I HAVE to have a job, because I have to pay my rent, food, etc etc. At the same time, I am very well aware that I am not able to work (even if it is computer work for now- university research). I just lack the energy and am in so much pain every day, and depressed. But I need finances to survive. There is noone else to do it, so, vicious circle I yet did not figure out how to get out of. I was hit by this when I was 25, just finished university and this does not give me any chances to have a decent career, I work part time. There is no other option than keep going, hoping that I would be able to keep the job and that my partner will became rich. But yes, adrenal fatique is definitely my issue and the stress of having to work even if I am drained is bad. I am doing my best.
Also thanks for the tip on Maca - I have to think about it as I have the problem I mentioned - I react extremely sensitively to herbs and supplements... For example, MSM gives me brutal headaches as well as DIM, rehmannia and peony makes my period come 10 days earlier, rhodiola makes me even more hypersensitive to sun plus worsens endometriosis, siberian ginseng worsens autoimmunity, blah blah, I could go on, but you get the point... Very annoying and even if I go very carefully with low doses. I have read about women having problems with maca - creating too much testosterone, gastrointestinal problems, acne, headaches... well everybody's different. Is there a specific dose you could recommend given my condition? Microdosing? I was on BC pill for 10 yrs (stopped after getting ill but too late), hence I am really interested, but need to proceed carefully...
Agreed that I will try Kambo more times.. I would not be able to have it every week because self-administration is something I was warned about by Giovanni, but once a month I can arrange. Self administration is something to be tried later I think.


Jox: Hey, I am glad you dropped in as  was inspired a lot by your posts. I do not have any unrealistic expectations I guess, I am just longing for tiny little things that stay APART from my normal ebbs and flows (my condition is not stable of course, I have bad days, better days, and as a young female I am very affected by hormonal changes). I kinda see some patterns in those ebbs and flows, so I would be probably able to say that Kambo did something positive. And what it did is that I felt less depressed, anxious and more calm the 2nd/3rd day. No physical benefit that I can see. Of course, that is a positive thing, but not a strong motivator. My motivation stems from the hope that I will see a more long-term effects after a course of, say, months. The reason I posted here was partly that I wanted to know if not getting physically better is something others experienced, too. And partly the sadness that I did not see any physical results, it is always good to know other's opinions when you feel like a failure. Maybe I will see some in a few months, maybe not... Thanks for the review of your CFS development. I am so glad you've gotten etter yourself, even before Kambo, that's great. Ad you are right that this would seem the cheapest way. Right now I am just sliding downwards, and by this, I am at least trying to stop that process. I know I can't expect being better right away or very soon, although it would be very nice. I am a young girl slowly losing her life, just witnessing others getting married, having kids, etc., mostly via damned Facebook because I am even not able to be there physically. That sucks, but I am a warrior, both on a physical and on psychological/spiritual level. I will continue with Kambo as often as I can get it (Giovanni told me not to do it myself), which is hopefully once a month.


Also I started to take Coriolus Versicolor (very low dose for now to see my reaction), for its immunomodulating properties. Will continue with Kambo once per month or more often if available and keep you posted. Thanks to all again!!! I am really grateful.

[Galega]

Maca - start with a low dose around 600mgs per day - that should be one capsule.  Maca stimulates and regulates the production of a normal level of hormones - that includes testosterone in women too.  I think that the side effects you mention must come from serious overdosing so start slowly and build up over time. There are signs with Maca to know if you're taking too much. Breast tenderness, similar to that which some women experience Pre Mestrually is the best one. Stick with one capsule a day for the first month and then increase by one capsule a month until you're on three per day. Then ou can increase/decrease until you find the right level - everyone is different.

I'm not suggesting that you should do your own Kambo treatments, Giovanni is 100% right on that but I was unsure if you had access to a decent practitioner on a regular basis. Once a month will be good for you anyway.

You could also try enteric coated oregano oil capsules for the Candida.

I totally agree with Jox. Every person that I have treated with CFS (or any compromised immune system) has felt sh*t the day after and improved over the next 5 days. I have found that as they progress with kambo, this drops from 5 to 4 to 3 etc until eventually it starts to kick in. Keep going!

[Jox]

Why not "do it yourself".  Patients with chronic condition must be independent.

Is Giovanni charging or it is for free, would he come to your home and do it any time you need?

I would do it once weekly for 3 week in a row, and if after 3 weeks nothing happens, then it is not for you.

Pay attention if you are sick from common cold, flu, or some infection, at the time you are doing the treatment. This can confuse the result.

best to you
Jox

ps. for depression do Iboga microdosing daily, or Aya 100g brew once a week.

[Kambogahuasca Panacea]

Is Giovanni charging or it is for free

He charges. 

[Kambogahuasca Panacea]

ps. for depression do Iboga microdosing daily

Especially with lecithin, bioperine and enzymes.  Taken all at once and sometimes a bit of noopeptides (only 30mg for me) and only 500mg of Iboga will make me so freaking happy that by now everyone at work says, "you look awfully happy today, did you take Iboga"?  It shatters funks with ease, but at such a micro level the funk can return the next day.  It takes a flood to make it more long term funk shattering.  I try to do it only when I feel I need it anymore as I don't want to depend on it to feel happy.  Taking the 500mg of RB on it's own without the others doesn't have near the effect or positivity to it for me.  I'm low on the tolerance level, maybe the lowest even though I'm not small.  So it's good if trying this route to be very careful and gradual until you find your comfort zone.  I find that even a miniscule too much level of even 250-500mg too much can make it not as positive.  Iboga can make you face your dark side hardcore which is difficult when you have to be socially active. 

[Kambogahuasca Panacea]

I have been having very colorful, interesting and sometimes disturbing dreams after and even before Kambo

Kambo dreams is certainly thread worthy.  I find this to be an amazing feature to the post Kambo experience.  Although I never have disturbing dreams.  For me the post Kambo dreams are a sea of calm and filled with light and tranquility. 

[Kambogahuasca Panacea]

Are you familiar with Helminthic therapy?  It's on the wacky side but quite welcome for this set and setting.  I first heard about it on Radio Lab 3 years ago, here is a Wikipedia reference...

Helminthic therapy, a type of immunotherapy, is the treatment of autoimmune diseases and immune disorders by means of deliberate infestation with a helminth or with the ova of a helminth. Helminths are parasitic worms such as hookworms and whipworms.

Helminthic therapy consists of the inoculation of the patient with specific parasitic intestinal nematodes (helminths). There are currently three closely related treatments available. Inoculation with Necator americanus,[1] commonly known as hookworms, or Trichuris suis ova (TSO),[2] commonly known as pig whipworm eggs, or inoculation with Trichuris trichiura ova,[1] commonly referred to as human whipworm eggs.

Current research and available therapy are targeted at, or available for, the treatment of Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), multiple sclerosis, asthma, eczema, dermatitis, hay fever and food allergies.

Helminthic infection has emerged as one possible explanation for the low incidence of autoimmune diseases and allergies in less developed countries, together with the significant and sustained increase in autoimmune diseases in industrialized countries.[3][4][5][6]
Contents

    1 Incidence of autoimmune diseases and parasitic infestation
    2 Theoretical explanation
    3 Research
    4 See also
    5 References

Incidence of autoimmune diseases and parasitic infestation

While it is recognized that there is probably a genetic disposition in certain individuals for the development of autoimmune diseases, the rate of increase in incidence of autoimmune diseases is not a result of genetic changes in humans, the rise of autoimmune related diseases in the industrialised world occurring in too short a time to be explained in this way. There is evidence that one of the primary reasons for the increase in autoimmune diseases in the industrialized nations is the significant change in environmental factors over the last century. Environmental factors include exposure to certain artificial chemicals from industrial processes, medicines, farming and food preparation. It is posited that the absence of exposure to certain parasites, bacteria and viruses is playing a significant role in the development of autoimmune diseases in the more sanitized Western industrialized nations.[7][8]

Lack of exposure to naturally occurring pathogens and parasites may result in an increased incidence of autoimmune diseases. This is consistent with the hygiene hypothesis.[3][9] A complete explanation of how environmental factors play a role in autoimmune diseases has still not been proposed. However epidemiological studies, such as the meta analysis by Leonardi-Bee et al.,[3] have helped to establish the link between parasitic infestation and its protective role in autoimmune disease development.

Genetic research on the interleukin genes (IL genes) shows that helminths have been a major selective force on a subset of these human genes. In other words, helminths have shaped the evolution of at least parts of the human immune system, especially the genes responsible for Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis and celiac disease — and provides further evidence that it is the absence of parasites, and in particular helminths, that has likely caused a substantial portion of the increase in incidence of diseases of immune dysregulation and inflammation in industrialized countries in the last century.[10]
Theoretical explanation

Although the mechanism of autoimmune disease development is not fully defined, there is broad agreement that the majority of autoimmune diseases are caused by inappropriate immunological responses to innocuous antigens, driven by a branch of the immune system known as the TH1 type immune response. Extra-cellular antigens primarily trigger the TH2 response, as observed with allergies, while intracellular antigens trigger a TH1 response. The relationship between these two types of immune response is a central theme of the hygiene hypothesis, which suggests that there is a regulatory action between the two types of response. However, the observation that allergies and autoimmune response are increasing at a similar rate in the industrialized nations appears to undermine the hygiene hypothesis.

A refinement of the hygiene hypothesis, which overcomes this apparent contradiction, is the "old friends hypothesis."[11] The old friends hypothesis modifies the hygiene hypothesis by proposing that T regulator cells can only become fully effective if they are stimulated by exposure to microorganisms and parasites that have low levels of pathogenicity, and which have coexisted universally with human beings throughout our evolutionary history. This theory has recently been given more credibility by a study demonstrating the impact of infectious organisms, and helminths in particular, upon genes responsible for the production of various cytokines, some involved in the regulation of inflammation, in particular those associated with the development of Crohn's Disease, ulcerative colitis, and celiac disease.[10]

The hygiene hypothesis proposes that appropriate immune response is in part learned by exposure to these microorganisms and parasites, and in part regulated by their presence. In the industrialised nations, humans are exposed to somewhat lower levels of these organisms. The development of vaccines, hygienic practices, and effective medical care have diminished or eliminated the prevalence and impact of many parasitic organisms, as well as bacterial and viral infections. This has been of obvious benefit with the effective eradication of many diseases that have plagued human beings. However, while many severe diseases have been eradicated, humans' exposure to benign and apparently beneficial parasites has also been reduced commensurately. The central thrust of the theory is, therefore, that correct development of T regulator cells in individuals may depend on exposure to organisms such as lactobacilli, various mycobacteria, and helminths.[6] Lack of exposure to sufficient benign antigens, particularly during childhood, is sometimes suggested as a cause of the increase in autoimmune diseases and diseases for which chronic inflammation is a major component in the industrialized world.
Research

Helminthic therapy with both hookworm and TSO has been investigated in research published by the University of Nottingham[12] and University of Iowa.[13]

Helminthic therapy is currently being studied as a treatment for several (non-viral) auto-immune diseases including celiac disease,[14] Crohn's disease,[15][16][17][18] multiple sclerosis,[19] and ulcerative colitis.[20]

Hookworms have been found to reduce the risk of developing asthma, while Ascaris lumbricoides (roundworm infection) was associated with an increased risk of asthma.[3]

[artycok]

Thanks again to all... Jox, I will consider that self-application later in the process... I guess that when I am more used to Kambo and its possible effects on me, that will be easier. Right now I will have to wait anyway. During yesterday and today my pollen allergy (birch) got so much worse that I am not able to leave the house or open the window (continuous sneezing and all the serious draining allergy symptoms). Have been taking vit C with bioflavonoids and grape seed extract to no avail. It has never been so bad in my life. Maybe Kambo stirred things up a bit. Anyway I would have to wait with another treatment to see the result clearly, so I have time. Huh.

As for Iboga - I really wanted to try that during the Kambo weekend with Giovanni, but had a weird intuitive feeling about that. So did my partner. And later it turned out that even Giovanni (without knowing my own intuition). I am so weak and my body reacts so aggressively (rashes, hives, suffocating, nausea, headaches, etc.) to many substances that it might do more harm than good. Also I have a very weak liver. I hope to try it later.

Helmint therapy is something I know of, but, my autoimmune problems are most probably caused by Lyme disease. As well as my interstitial cystitis, fatigue and other problems, because lyme causes crash of many bodily systems. Anyway I just do not believe that body turns against itself "just like that" - there is a trigger - chemicals, chronic infection, etc. For me it was probably stress and infection that became chronic. Plus I have tried that antiparasitic therapy by Hulda Clark and actually got better for a while!! (Could be that it is also antimicrobial, but also a sign that parasites are not neccessarily good for me).

Galega: Thanks, you are really kind. Pity you are not in CR or nearby - would really like to meet you as a healer! I wanted to ask, you seem to be very experienced in Maca usage... I have read all over the internet, that it can be harmful to those with adrenal fatique because it stimulates the adrenals to be more active (and produce more cortisol, etc.) while they are already drained. Can be ok for those with mild adrenal fatigue while not for those with severe one. Also I came across the fact that in people with worse adrenal condition it might seem OK initially, but causing adrenal crash later because of that stimulation. I do not know what to think, but I have to be careful as I have exactly that kind of experience with Rhodiola (also often recommended for adrenal fatigue). Initially it made me significantly better, more energy, better mood, a little less pain. Then I was jittery and agitated on it, but exhausted and could not sleep. And then just sunk deeper in fatigue and illness and even worse autoimmunity plus much much worse candida to the point that I was bleeding and tearing (ehm, female parts)!... I have to stress that I took it under a care of professional and no excess amount of it! Same goes for siberian ginseng (again, an adaptogen supposedly good for adrenal health). I could virtually feel like I am burning a fuel my body does not have with all the consequences afterwards. Would love to know what you think of it. Maybe Maca is more gentle and balancing than the other adaptogens?
(Basically I had the same concerns with Kambo, as it stimulates the pituitary gland and also adrenals in a kind of "shock"). But that is a different thing as I feel.

And one more question - a friend of mine offers me Maca powder (raw, slowly dried, organic quality). Thing is, a lot of people report gastrointestinal issues and hives with raw powder even in small quantities and also it is said that Peruvians never eat it raw as it is considered harmful. I have more respect to the wisdom of people who live with the medicine for centuries than to some modern western pseudo shamans looking for profit selling "organic raw whatever". So, I would rather not start with raw Maca,esp in my case. One can buy "gelatinized"Maca in capsules and that is supposed to be better... Well I thought - what about making a tea out of it? Would that be OK or would I destroy some essential components? Guess 600mg could be 1/4 of a teaspoon of that powder?

For candida I have tried oregano oil (oreganol), sf722, GSE, caprylic acid, nasturtium, and many more, plus the diet... It seems that candida is rather a consequence of a deeper problem in my case rather than the cause itself. But, who knows. Sometimes I test positive (gyno tests), sometimes negative. There are no better tests in CR and it is difficult to determine if I actually have it (I mean the overgrowth). I think so so I take measures...

Thanks again guys, for your support.

[Galega]

Yes, you must take gelatinized Maca capsules - it should never be taken raw, organic or not. In Peru, Maca is always cooked - seems to be part of the raw/organic movement in Europe but this is misguided. Anyone taking raw Maca will experience all the issues you describe. If you can get gelatinized Black Maca - even better.
I would go with capsules because they're easy and Maca doesn't taste too great to me!. One capsule is 500-600mg and the optimum dose is 1200-1500 but go slow.

I know of a good few people who have succesfully used Maca for adrenal fatigue, even one person whose adrenals had completely packed up. This guy below is an Adrenal Fatigue expert and he advocates Maca too.
He also says that Siberian Ginseng should never be taken by women!

http://blog.adrenalfatigue.org/adrenal-fatigue/dietary-supplements-herbs-stress-and-adrenal-fatigue/

You could be right about the candida but if the tests are not available in CR maybe you would consider getting them done outside CR? You can get the blood drawn locally and post it. http://www.accesalabs.com/toxin?gclid=COrHv93Hg7ICFcHCKgodbQsAUQ


I'll let you know if I ever come your way.

All blessings

[artycok]

Hey Galega, thanks! Well my active friend brought me the raw powder already, so I guess I will just make tea out of 1/4 teaspoon (using boiling water and keep it simmer for some time) and will see what happens. I see gelatinized Maca is pretty darn expensive and I would have to order it from abroad, so I will give this a shot.

Btw. I know that page, he says panax ginseng (that one I never took) is not good for women, not siberian ginseng (eleuthero) - he advocates that one. Siberian ginseng is considered safe and yet it was worsening my autoimmunity and doing nothing for the fatique.  Go figure.

[Galega]

Ahh, getting my ginsengs mixed up. 

Best to spread the maca powder out on a baking tray and bake it in the oven on a low heat for a while. Then you can make tea from it or put it in a smoothie/juice.

[artycok]

Cool, thanks, I will do that! Good to know that just boiling water is not enough!

Having next Kambo session in the beginning of June, can't wait!

Galega (or anyone willing to advice), do you mind if I ask you a few questions about self-administration? I still think about that... I, like you and some others here, feel that I need to do Kambo more often in the beginning (weekly perhaps) in order to be able to evaluate its effects and also to get the best of it. Also you mentioned you treated people with CFS/fibro/etc like that. So I was wondering... Also for financial reasons (Jox is very right there).

How would I know where to make burns? (Just decide intuitively?) I quite know the meridians, butit takes time before my previous burns heal. Gallbladder is occupied for now, for example.
How would I know how many? I know I can handle 6 - that's what Giovanni gave me... Should I make less just to be safe? (Of course, with somebody assisting me and being with me - perhaps my partner).
Where do I get the slime? I would like to be sure it comes from a frog that have been treated properly and did not suffer.
When you self-treat, is it good to do the classic treatment (2 consecutive Kambos one day, another one the next day?). Or just one, if you do it once a week?

[jkahndb0]

http://kambo.me/smf/index.php?topic=79.0

There was a guy on ebay who had several sticks for sale @ $32- from argentina but it just sold out (also has Nu-Nu 10gr $27- shipped).. He said he travels to the Matse to get it [who knows if its true]....

Kambo.nu, incense.nu, reset.nu,  yage.nl, maya-ethnobotanicals.com.. are all the same place and pretty much the only place that has them...

[Jox]

Hi Artycok,


I am glad you are considering doing it yourself. I am under Kambo just as writing this... but start a new tread, I don't like long threads, since I think they got confusing for others to read.

I just did with my new stick, from maya, as mentioned above, it actually felt different, I will write about it later.

Kambogahuascangapé has another porvider.

best
Jox

[Galega]

Hi there

I've given this a bit of thought overnight. This may not be a very popular response but that's ok.

I am not against self administration as a general rule. If you take the time to learn how to administer kambo properly (there's lots of info in this forum about that) and you do it safely with a sitter, then all good, I welcome the spread of this fine medicine. However, if you have complex and multiple health issues such as yours (artycok) then I would advise caution. The fact that you have had unusual and allergic reactions to common herbs and supplements means that you need to be a little more careful than the average self administrator. I suspect that this may be why Giovanni told you not to do it. I would tell you the same thing. For most of us kambo is 100% safe but for the occasional sensitive person, extra care is needed. I appreciate that money is often an issue with these things but if you think about the cost of all the supplements you're taking and the cost of not being able to work properly and live your life, then the cost of the kambo may be seen with a different perspective. It's hard to put a cost on your health when it is impacting you in this way. Personally, I would cut out everything else for a short while and focus on the kambo - but that's just me. Possibly, you could speak to the person that you will go to once a month. Explain your situation and ask her to help you. If someone comes to me with a genuine health issue and cannot afford the treatment they need, then if I can, I will help them by reducing the cost to a level that is comparable with or lower than self administration. I have also traded treatments for other things, everyone has something to offer. Unfortunately we are in different parts of the world or I would offer this to you.

The bigger picture on this is that kambo is legal at the moment and I want it to stay that way. In fact I want to see manistream medicine developed from it (even though I despise big pharma) and I want to see the original, holistic medicine thrive alongside it. For this to happen, those of us that are using at this stage must proceed with a little caution. I'm by no means risk averse or I would never have discovered these amazing medicines in the first place, but, I don't want to see accidents happen. So far these have been low key and happened in the forest ( as far as I'm aware). 

Its not my intention to spread fear about this, simply to ask you to be careful. Kambo has been around a long time but we still have a lot to learn about it. I applaud those who are pushing the boundaries and extending our collective knowledge but we must also know when to apply caution. I have been present when a person experienced a severe allergic reaction from kambo despite having taken it on a previous occasion. We don't understand all its interactions with other substances so this can happen occasionally. You're taking lots of things, trying lots of new things - and that's great. You're pro-active and you're fighting it. I feel sure you'll get through this.